Not being close to Christians.

Does anyone else find that their close friends – indeed the vast majority of their friends – aren’t Christians? I’ve always felt far more comfortable with non-Christians.

I find that with Christians there’s always something in the way somehow or other; I feel both under pressure to project a version of myself which isn’t the truth, and also that they are feeding me a false image of themselves. My friendships with non-Christians feel far more honest, and so far more real. I can’t help but feel that this is totally the wrong way around, that it should be within the Church that people are free to deal with each other as we are rather than as we feel we ought to be; but it doesn’t seem to work that way. To me, at least. It’s not for want of opportunities; I was brought up in a strongly Christian family, went to the usual round of Christian house parties, my brother and sister both have largely Christian friends.

Of course, there are some pretty painful issues with having a basically non-Christian circle of friends. First and foremost there’s the difficulty of not being able to talk about something that’s the most important part of my life. I’m a very reluctant evangelist; not entirely from fear, either – I have always been very reluctant to trespass into the parts of people’s lives that really matter to them without their invitation. Where invitation and opportunity arise I do, but they don’t very often. Not that I find it any easier talking about Jesus to Christians – not without slipping into some fairly shallow cliches and platitudes, anyway. And then there’s the points at which morals diverge so sharply as to make it very difficult; particularly over relationships.

I don’t know whether it’s a failing of mine or not, but it makes things very difficult. It’s difficult always being a bit of a prude by comparison with your friends, unable to share in many conversations without either appearing a rather judgemental prude or else betraying things you really believe. It’s particularly difficult if you fall for someone who doesn’t share your faith. Yet I rarely feel at ease, relaxed and comfortable, in a group of Christians.

Why is there suffering?

Why is there suffering?

God can do anything, so why doesn’t he stop us from hurting?

This article is a collection and re-organisation of the thoughts of loads of different people who contributed to the Wiki page called WhyGodAllowsuffering. Apologies if I’ve messed it up in any way.


Important things to say first

If you’re suffering

If you’re going through real suffering at the moment, it may be that the ideas talked about here don’t help you – what you’re really looking for is love and comfort. We want to pass on to you our very deep sympathy; please contact us and we’ll do our very best to show real concern and help. We’re an odd lot, but we’ll listen and we care.

God suffers

A lot of people talked about the suffering that God has been through and still goes through:

“Not quite an answer to the question, but important: God isn’t immune from suffering himself. At the very crux of history, God the Son screams in agony at the cross. Whatever the answer is to God allowing suffering, it’s not something he takes casually – it’s at the very heart of his plan for this universe, and he’s suffered more than anyone (I wonder what having a Person of the Trinity amputated feels like?)”

“Add to this the combined suffering of all the people he loves more than we ever can. How does it make you feel when someone you love suffers?”

“Add to this the fact that so many of his beloved people reject him. Even people he has saved and loved for a lifetime turn away from him and betray him again and again.”

Add to this the fact that there are those who believe that Jesus’ death and the fact that he took the punishment for everyone means that he went to Hell, and that perhaps in some sense the suffering he experienced there is eternal, and we begin to get an idea that God is no stranger to suffering.


Possible Answers

We don’t know

Lots of people expressed confusion and and worry about this issue – all the ideas in this article are just possibilities and suggestions, not definitive answers.

“I personally find it hard when this question is actually asked. I cannot really explain it cos i know that God knows us inside out, so knows what we are going to experience. I have asked this question so much. I feel like God wants us to find faith in him when we suffer. i cannot really see why it all happens, only God has the answer to that one.”

“God seems to know more about what we are to face that any one ever can. I cannot therefore explain how he can justify it all. We are children and what father would allow his child to suffer?”

God suffers, as we know, and that fact provides some hint of an answer to this question:

“The surprise is that God does allow his child, Christ, to suffer – and we share in his sufferings. So, while it would be very wrong for a human father to stand aside and let meaningless suffering happen to his child, it seems that God judges that it’s right to let some suffering happen. Hard to understand, but again perhaps the Cross is at the heart of trying to figure out the meaning of suffering?”

He doesn’t do it

The weakest of the answers we discussed: God never allows us to suffer, it is the people in the land that actually allow us to suffer.

“Still struggle with that one!!! For example, what does this teach us about natural disasters and disease, etc.?”

“I do find it hard to believe this answer. We see many times in the Bible when God does step in and act to rescue people from terrible circumstances; so when he doesn’t, he is ‘allowing’ suffering in some way. The suffering may come from the hands of other people, but God isn’t striking those people down – so at some level he is allowing it.”

It’s worth it

Several people talked about how maybe suffering can help us, which is a very difficult idea but also seems to be true:

“Maybe some of the answer is that God is changing us through suffering. That is very hard to swallow sometimes though, isn’t it?”

“Some suffering is about learning though isn’t it? I mean with children, if you deliberately cause them to suffer or if it’s for no reason then that’s not cool but no matter how much you love them, you can’t keep them in a protective bubble and there comes a point when they have to learn for themselves that if they touch something hot it burns, or that if they climb up on something they’re not supposed to climb on there’s a good chance they’ll fall off and it will hurt. Ok, that’s on rather small scale compared to some of this stuff but thought the idea behind it made sense when I started writing…”

And others expressed the thought that maybe God can see that it’s worth it even though we can’t really understand that:

“The people who make me feel closest to God when I speak to them are often the people who’ve gone through great suffering or are facing death and still praise God for His goodness, with no negative feelings towards Him. They have learnt what it is to trust in God when it really matters, not just in the minor worries I’ve had to face, and it’s amazing to see their strength and love for Him.”

“Does God choose not to save us at the time? Is that also his plan? … Being outside time it must all seem very different to God. The nearest I can get to what I mean is that if I tell my friend’s little girl she can’t do something she wants to do until the evening, she thinks that’s FOREVER and it really distresses her and is a huge deal. She is very little and doesn’t really have much concept of time. Whereas for me, waiting a couple of hours isn’t something that seems very long. And I’m not saying that that means He doesn’t care about people’s suffering.”

“It certainly is hard to swallow sometimes. But yes, I think this is an important piece in the jigsaw. eg Heb 12.5-11, James 1.2-4, 1 Pet 1.6-7, are very much on this theme.”

“Sometimes our suffering is through persecution – part of being on God’s side. He could wind this up very quickly, but that would mean bad consequences for the persecutors. I’m reminded of 2 Pet 3.8-9. I guess the same could be said of all suffering, in fact.”

The idea of our suffering being part of a war we are fight for and with God is taken up and explained in Disappointment with God by Philip Yancey – a book that comes highly recommended for people interested in this topic.

He can’t

This is a controversial idea, but quite a few people were sympathetic to it: maybe God is actually incapable of preventing suffering. The exact meaning people put on this differs:

“Maybe he actually can’t stop suffering. Controversial? Does this mean he’s not all-powerful?”

“There may well be a lot of truth in this. I believe that God is all-powerful; but I think that some ways of explaining what that means don’t make sense, or aren’t true of the Christian God. For instance ‘God is all-powerful, therefore he can lie’ is not right in Christianity. Neither, I think, is ‘God is all-powerful, therefore he can make 2+2=3’. God can’t lie; he can’t do things that are against his character. He can’t alter logic; again, logic is part of his character. A way of explaining what we as Christians mean by ‘God is all-powerful’ is ‘God can do whatever he wants’. It may be that, if you create things like us, and we choose to sin, it’s logically impossible that we don’t suffer. God is all-powerful, but some suffering has to happen. This may not be right – it’s just a guess, but it seems consistent with the picture we’re given in the Bible of an all-powerful, suffering God.”

“Of course, on the “God cannot lie” issue – if God is incapable of lieing, why bother thanking him for not lieing? Perhaps he could lie, but has chosen not to – that would make him worth thanking.”*

So maybe God has deliberately taken away his own ability to prevent suffering (or continually restrains himself from preventing it, because it would have terrible consequences if he did. For example, he might not be able to stop suffering without also stopping our freedom to make decisions for ourselves, and maybe he thinks it’s worth the sacrifice.

* On this issue there is a counter-argument: “I think praising God for His character (including His faithfulness, or not lying if you prefer) is well-justified by CS Lewis’s idea: ‘I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation. It is not out of compliment that lovers keep on telling one another how beautiful they are; the delight is incomplete till it is expressed.’ (in ‘Reflections on the Psalms’)”

He has paid us back

Perhaps life actually is fair because God has paid us back in some sense for the suffering world into which we have been born. This payment may include God’s own suffering, but also his actual decision in the first place to intervene through Jesus. Maybe that gift of Jesus simply redresses the balance. Again, this is a controversial idea.

“There may well be a lot of truth in this. I believe that God is all-knowing, and outside of time – so he did know what bad consequences for him and for us would occur if he made the world. I don’t really understand why he’d still go ahead and do it, but presume that it’s because he judges the final outcome to be worth it.”

“One way of looking at the final outcome is that he has some real friends who chose to be his friends. Also we get real friends in him and in other people. If we think this is what God was doing all this for it makes you really value your friends, right?”


Other issues

Heaven and Hell

In any discussion on this topic the subject of Hell is bound to pop up. After a little bit of thought the consensus was that this is actually a separate topic*, and so the discussion was quite brief – here’s a snippet.

“Maybe God doesn’t stop all suffering because it’s an (admittedly harsh) signpost to the fact that we’re under a curse and facing judgment – this seems to be Jesus’ point about suffering in Luke 13, as well as the point of God’s judgments in Genesis 3 … Of course the suffering on earth is nothing like as harsh as the judgement, so in a way if we can accept that maybe we can accept this world too?”

Heaven, too, came up:

“Again, not an answer as such, but important: we’re assured that God is planning to bring an end to suffering for everyone he rescues, in the new universe that’s coming – and he does this through the suffering of God the Son in this universe. This universe, and our suffering, seem at the moment to last for ages; but one day we’ll look at it as a drop in the ocean in comparison with the ‘time’ that suffering doesn’t exist for us.”

* A fuller discussion took place on the WhatDoYouThinkAboutHell Wiki page.


Last Word

A lot of people have expressed opinions about this topic, and we’ve heard opinions ranging from simply having no idea, to quite radical and complex questions about the very nature of God. In the end, however, the thing that actually makes it possible to think about this issue at all is that God is here with us in our sufferings and sorrows. He doesn’y just understand or sympathise, he experiences them with us, and has experienced many others for us:

“A poem, expressing how Jesus on the cross helps us to comprehend suffering. In particular, I find the last verse very helpful. This is by Edward Shillito, one of the War Poets. It’s called ‘Jesus of the Scars’.”

If we have never sought, we seek thee now;
Thine eyes burn though the dark, our only stars;
We must have sight of thorn-marks on thy brow,
We must have thee, O Jesus of the scars.

The heavens frighten us; they are too calm;
In all the universe we have no place.
Our wounds are hurting us; where is the balm?
Lord Jesus, by thy scars we know thy grace.

If, when the doors are shut, thou drawest near,
Only reveal those hands, that side of thine;
We know today what wounds are, have no fear;
Show us thy scars, we know the countersign.

The other gods were strong, but thou wast weak;
They rode, but thou didst stumble to a throne;
But to our wounds only God’s wounds can speak,
And not a god has wounds, but thou alone.


The stuff on this page was written by the GuiltyExpression community, and re-organised by Andy. I’m really sorry if I’ve moved anything out of context or put a slant on things.

He doesn’t drive me away

Whatever it is that makes me dread praying – makes church so unpleasant – fills me with fear of getting too close to the truth – whatever it is, it isn’t God.

When I look at it properly, my life is a demonstration of Immanuel – God with us – he’s always been with me, always been ready to take me back. He’s shown himself to be trustworthy, but I just fear him.

What drives me away from him? Why can’t I be comfortable with him? Is it guilt about how I’ve betrayed him? If so, I clearly don’t understand what he and Jesus have done.

I actually think it’s because I don’t trust him – I don’t want to give myself up to him.

Anyway, I just wanted to say in front of everyone: it’s not God driving me away – it can feel like that, but it’s not.

Singleness or Being Paul

This is an hot potato that has probably done the rounds but just some thoughts. God loves me whether I am single, married, with kids, without. OK. However I recognise that there are differences in how you are supposed to act, behave, think when you are single, especially in the church’s eyes.

Are single people supposed to become Paul and because they have so much time on their hands, become missionaries, help in soup kitchens, volunteer to be youthworkers, help in the local old folks home, babysit etc… And we are supposed to be fulfilled as a person through this service!

I also find it very hard to go to church, join new activites as I am always going on my own, driving there on my own, walking in on my own, having to look for someone I know when I get there… And they wonder where all the young people are in the church i.e. 20’s.

Sorry this has all been a bit bitter and angry and I don’t want it to be like that, thanks for the website.

Rant against Christian bookshops

I find it very hard to like Christian bookshops. I feel very uncomfortable in them, and always come out feeling angry.

Why?

I find it hard to put my finger on. Certainly the fact that the science sections in most I’ve been in are full of dreadful, dreadfully ignorant and misleading books doesn’t help. But it goes much further than that.

I find the middle-of-the-road worship music in the background very irritating. I’m not sure what I *want* to hear, but this stuff sounds insincere, hyped up and unimaginitive.

I find the range of books disturbing. Sometimes it’s the unthinking, reactionary, judgmental books that I don’t like. On the other hand, sometimes I’m upset by the books that seem to have lost touch with the truth. I know it’s a good thing that people have the freedom to look at a whole range of books, but that doesn’t stop me feeling unsettled, and even secretly wishing that certain books weren’t on offer in this particular forum.

I don’t like the commercialism. These bookshops sometimes feel just like rather aggressive vendors of any other product. We seem sometimes to have bought into exactly the same marketing ploys, however cynical, that are around outside the church.

If you like these bookshops, or work in one, feel free to disagree with me! But at the minute I find it a real chore when I have to go into one of these places. What do other people think?

Friendship

I know people I like.

I know Christians I like.

But I didn’t meet them at church.

What is it about church that makes relationships made there so worthless?

I think it goes to the very heart of what’s rubbish about church.

A very long time ago I did a children’s talk when I was in the church youth group. I cut up a lot of oranges (my visual aid) and talked about how church ought to be a place where we remove our “skin” of pretending and be real.

Over the years that image stays with me. Church is a place where we pretend to be good and respectable. That’s such a basic mistake!

Of course, there is an exception. When we have “strayed” but now we’ve got it all sorted again it is perfectly acceptable to talk about it. The whole concept of straying, as if we basically get it all right most of the time but sometimes go wrong for a bit, is a lie.

This false environment provides a strong barrier to forming proper relationships with people. In order to become friends with someone from church I have to disassociate them from church in my mind. We have to meet enough at home or somewhere else that I no longer see them as a church person, but as a person who happens to go to my church.

This is so the opposite of how it should be. Where is the acknowledgement of what life is really like?

My “church friends” are not friends at all – they’re people I can talk to at church so that I’m not standing there on my own. The whole business is a complete waste of time and I only go out of duty.

What can we do to make it better? What can I do?

No Guilty Expression

I don’t really sin – ok occasionally I could spend more time praying or reading the bible. But to be honest at the most my white robes have smudges on the collar and cuffs.

From time to time, I sit down to ask God for forgiveness for my sins only to find that really none spring to mind.

Am I alone in this?

I really feel that there is something lacking in my attitude to sin. I feel that many of us could do with being a bit more convicted of what we do wrong. Jesus did die to free us from our sins – but as long as we act as though we were still ruled by our sinful nature, we are sinning and hurting God.

Obviously there are those that are of the opposite extreme that are be haunted and weighed down by their sins. But that is certainly a trap that I definitely manage to side step.

Why can’t I bring to mind all the hurts, failures and pride of my day? I have at times felt convicted of my sin but this is rare and normally caused by a particularly bad transgression [in human terms.] I feel that my blank mind comes from two causes: the devil and my lack of interest. I think that throughout the day and especially as one comes to review the past hours, days and weeks, the devil carefully shades our eyes, distracts our minds and dwells much more on our own hurts and fears. Our own natures seem to work in harmony with this; I feel that I am not truly interested in noticing my sins. Sins do not jump out at me, either during their perpetration or later in recollection because deep down I don’t want to know and don’t really care.

Yet I remain convicted that I should care – that I owe Jesus so much, that surely I could take the time to notice the sins I commit that helped nail him to the cross. So how can I make myself more ‘sin sensitive’?

There seem to be two courses of action.

The standard Sunday school catch all of prayer. I feel that I should ask God to lift these sinful blinkers which make my shortfalls slip by unnoticed. Though of course you have to be careful what you ask for – do I really want to know? This seems a pretty scary option.

The other?

I could ask someone else to tell me…

Is Christianity a socialist faith?

I have been reading 2 Cor Chapter 8 13 – 15 (and Exodus 16 which it refers to). As I read the words of Paul I get a strong feeling that being in a Christian Community should mean equality and when we have plenty we should give it up. This to me fits in with socialism. I don’t mean the Labour Party but I do mean a political ideal. Was Christ a socialist? If so should we be?

What Job Said

This week I was planning to write an article summarising everything that’s come out of the page called WhyGodAllowsSuffering on the wiki. However, when I came to think about it, I decided to try and add a different way of looking at it instead of gathering it all together just yet.

What I’m doing here is really supposed to be an encouragement to honest, especially with God, and especially about your feelings, on this site and in your everyday life.

You may have noticed I recently added a quote to the front page of the site. It’s a quote from God about Job, and it says, “You have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” In other words, what Job said was right.

And what Job said was deeply shocking. Bear in mind as you read that God said that Job spoke of him truthfully. Also bear in mind that Job’s friends, didn’t like what he said – this might happen to you.


“The arrows of the Almighty are in me, my spirit drinks in their poison; God’s terrors are marshalled against me.” Job 6:4

“Therefore I will not keep silent; I will speak out in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul. Am I the sea, or the monster of the deep, that you put me under guard? When I think my bed will comfort me and my couch will ease my complaint, even then you frighten me with dreams and terrify me with visions, so that I prefer strangling and death, rather than this body of mine. I despise my life; I would not live for ever. Let me alone; my days have no meaning.” Job 7:11-16

“He is not a man like me that I might answer him, that we might confront each other in court. If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both, someone to remove God’s rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more. Then I would speak up without fear of him, but as it now stands with me, I cannot.” Job 9:32-35

“I will say to God: Do not condemn me me, but tell me what charges you have against me. Does it please you to oppress me, to spurn the work of your hands, while you smile on the schemes of the wicked?” Job 10:2-3

“Though I cry, `I’ve been wronged!’ I get no response; though I call for help, there is no justice. He has blocked my way so that I cannot pass; he has shrouded my paths in darkness. He has stripped me of my honour and removed the crown from my head. He tears me down on every side till I am gone; he uproots my hope like a tree. His anger burns against me; he counts me among his enemies.” Job 19:7-11

“But if I go to the east, he is not there; if I go to the west, I do not find him. When he is at work in the north, I do not see him; when he turns to the south, I catch no glimpse of him.” Job 23:8-9

“As surely as God lives, who has denied me justice, the Almighty, who has made me taste bitterness of soul, as long as I have life within me, the breath of God in my nostrils, my lips will not speak wickedness, and my tongue will utter no deceit.” Job 27:2-4


It sounds weird but I just love these bits of Job – the really bitter, unambivalent complaints against God – accusing him. They inspire me, energise me like no other parts of the Bible. I hope they’re good for you too…

At the end of Job God does not answer these accusations – he just tells Job that he could never understand.

This is the real God – this is Jesus – life is not simple and God never said it was. This is a God I can worship – a God who wants to hear my complaints just as much as my praise – a God who loves me how I am, not how I feel like I ought to be – a God who suffers minute by minute, second by second unimaginably much for the decision he made to create me – a God who knew all this pain would come to him when he made the decision and knew that that pain would not be limited to him, but would be shared by his beloved children – this is the reality of Christianity – it truly provides an answer, not a blindfold to the agony and ecstacy of being.

Downs and Ups

Over the last week I’ve confronted some stuff and wobbled, and felt better, and worried about that, etc…

C.S.Lewis talked about the “Law of Undulation”* by which he meant that human beings just don’t notice that their feelings about everything go up and down no matter what they do. I’ve had a bit of that this week.

* in his book, “The Screwtape Letters” which I would recommend to everyone everywhere.

About a week ago I was talking to my wife (Pia) about how we felt about things and about our relationships with God and so on. We realised that in many ways we were feeling very far from him and afraid to go near.

I’ve always had to force myself to go to church – sometimes I enjoy it when I get there (sometimes not) – but the thought of it always makes me negative. Often too I don’t like the thought of praying.

We tend to pray together just before we go to sleep, and we realised that we had become quite slack at this, still doing it but not putting in any effort and just getting it over with.

Meanwhile, I’d pretty much stopped doing any other praying or Bible reading on my own and we hadn’t read the Bible together for ages.

We thought about why this had happened, and I really felt that for me it was because the thought of praying or spending time with God (i.e. remembering he exists) made me terrified. So I’d been squeezing it out because it was unpleasant.

Now, we could spend ages talking about why I feel like this, and perhaps we should, but anyway I’m going to tell you what we did about it instead.

So, in a monumental effort, we admitted all this to each other, and decided we should do something about it, so we agreed to read the Bible and pray together every day when we got back from work, and also to spend time apart doing this, and prepare stuff to say when we were together.

The next day, we sat down on the sofa and tried to do this. To be honest, I was expecting it to be a lot easier than I expected (as it were) because God often does stuff like that. But it wasn’t. It was just as bad as I thought. We didn’t know what to read (so we started with Revelation in the Bible), we didn’t get anything out of what we read, we didn’t have anything to say to each other and we didn’t want to pray. I asked for forgiveness for our neglect of God, and nothing happened. We tried, and I thought God would surely reward us for all this effort by making it easier next time.

But the next day was just as bad, and by the end I felt pretty despairing. I sat there and said to God, “Look we’re really trying – you know how hard we’ve found it to confront this, and how hard it has been to act on it, and now we need your help to make it work.” But nothing happened.

After this we had a conversation about what to do and we decided that the next day Pia would choose a Psalm she liked (she’s got into Psalms recently) and we’d read that. I thought I’d choose a song out of a Christian song book (aaaaaaargh!) and use that as a prayer to help us pray.

So we had something to do the next day; we weren’t completely lost, and actually it felt like God was there. because I had this crutch of reading out something someone else had written I felt freer to pray myself, and I was able to thank God for stuff and ask him for forgiveness and help. The song even allowed me to “worship” a bit I think.

Since then we’ve missed more days than we’ve done, but through forgetfulness and busy-ness rather than fear I think. I’ve found that when we pray I’ve just got more words to say and I don’t feel so terrible. Basically I’m more comfortable with the concept of being “in God’s presence,” whatever that means.

So what’s the moral of the story? Well really it’s that I was a bit silly to be in despair. I was dead right that God would want to take 10 steps towards us when we took half of one faltering step, but it actually took 3 days for me to be able to feel I had made progress, but 2 days for me to give up on him.

Never forget how short-sighted you are.

(Unless you’re not me and therefore not so short-sighted.)

Another moral of the story is that it could be helpful to use “crutches” like reading from a book if you’re finding praying difficult. Check out the wiki – there’s a discussion there on how to get closer to God that is about that kind of idea.